Third World Ant

The thoughts of a little ant on a big planet.

Monday, February 05, 2007

Car-related debates

Let’s stick with this theme, shall we? If all goes according to plan, I’ll have a new car by the end of the week.

In the meantime, two car-related topics have come up in my conversations recently.

Cooling down, slowly

My friend Nan and her boyfriend have been arguing about the effect of aircon on your car’s power. He says (driving a 1.4 litre Golf) there is no discernable effect, as he can see no loss of revs – not even when trying to accelerate uphill with the aircon blasting.

The Gilb (and Nan and the rest of humanity, no doubt) believe otherwise. The Gilb says he loses 200-300 rpm if he turns the aircon on, which is especially noticeable when driving up a hill – on a flat stretch of road, no difference is really felt. I will have to experiment in my new car, as my dear Max does not have aircon.

Vaguely related: A while back, I came across an article discussing fuel efficiency and cooling down your car, regarding whether it is more fuel efficient to use aircon, or drive with your window open (creating drag). It claimed that at speeds above 70km/h, you should use aircon as it becomes more fuel efficient.


More bang for your buck

Over my driving life, I’ve made use of petrol from all petrol stations, and have observed a curious thing: some petrols (BP, Shell) get you further than others (Engen, Caltex, Sasol). At first I thought I was imagining things, so I started keeping a record of the mileage I got out of tanks filled with different petrol brands (in fact, damn! Another graph I could have displayed for my last post!), and the results consistently showed that BP and Shell (although in the latter’s case I have substantially fewer data points – their petrol stations are few and far between) get me almost 100km extra out of a tank. The fact that both these petrol brands do the trick almost confirms the observation for me, as BP and Shell share the same refinery (Natref, for those who care) which means the fuels refined there would share identical compositions (except for certain additives which are added later). Now, I know how variations in petrol can affect performance, but I have yet to do research to understand how they can affect fuel economy.

I forgot about this observation (other than subconsciously always choosing BP/Shell stations to refuel at) until the other day, when the Gilb mentioned that both he and a colleague had noticed different fuel mileages out of different petrol brands – although they said they’d noticed it with Shell only, not BP. They also claimed to notice better performance from Sasol petrol, and swear that this is not blind allegiance to their employer, but fact. (I wonder if the two factors, fuel economy and performance, are inversely related?)

I sheepishly have to admit I’ve not ever noticed a performance difference, nor did it occur to me that there even might be a discernable difference in the performance of fuels, despite the fact that I’ve seen advertising where brands have tried to differentiate themselves on the performance of their fuels. Interestingly, I’ve not seen any ads that I can remember that claim to get better mileage. In a world of ever-rising fuel prices, I find that a mighty strange thing.

32 Comments:

At 9:44 am, Blogger Antoine said...

Now you have started something TWA. Time to get 1,000 people together and do a definative study. Shell may even pay for it. *chuckle*

 
At 9:56 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Morning Ant,

So unfair that u are getting a new car!

I might be going mad, but I really think BP petrol is cheaper than any other. (I know it can’t be seeing that petrol is the same price everywhere) But I noticed that when I fill my tank it cost about R260, but at BP it cost R200. Strange...

I loose allot of power when I put my aircon on (especially going up hill) I think I realize it more because I drive an automatic.

But then again I am a woman, and according to guys... What do we know about cars!!

Interesting post!

Have a FAB week!!

 
At 11:01 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Definitely worth investigating. Then again, it usually costs me about R20 to fill up my scooter no matter which petrol I use, so it would be of academic interest only.

 
At 11:29 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

The aircon thing isn't an issue on (modern) cars with smaller engines, they use electric motors for the compressor, so it doesn't steal any power from the motor. It's cheaper to do it the old fashioned way though, so bakkies prolly still have it driven off the fan belt.

 
At 12:12 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

We test drove a Honda 15 Vtech 2007 last weekend, and the sales person said the same thing (as Pete)

When we were going up hill we switched the aircon off, and you could imediatly feel the car has more power??
I don't know how true that is. Or it might only be some cars.

 
At 12:32 pm, Blogger sdfa sdfasdfadsf said...

Heathens! Get a diesel car; there's so much torque you won't notice a thing.

But yeah, even on modern small cars you can't notice anything. I'm driving a Yaris up here in JHB for the week and there's absolutely no difference with it on or off.

What I will say, Shell V Power Diesel is BY FAR the best Diesel fuel! You can definitely notice a difference.

and BP sucks. Eugh.

 
At 12:53 pm, Blogger Third World Ant said...

Antoine - a great idea indeed! I may give them a ring later this week (seriously) to discuss...

somali - best you tell me which BP stations you're filling up at, then!

kyk - now, if Shell would be sponsoring free petrol for the duration of the study, would you still be so indifferent? Hmmm? That's a pint of beer right there each week, mister!

pete and anon - as with all things vehicular, I shall pass this info on to the Gilb for clarification. I know nothing. Feel like doing some online research of your own??? Anon, how was the test drive? Going to buy a VTEC?

kevin - great, so you'll definitely participate in our Shell test!

 
At 1:30 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

ant, i'm definitely surprised that no petrol brand's ever claimed to get more mileage....interesting!!! and i've found the exact same....BP and Shell just proves to be better:-) with regards to the other stuff...power etc. i don't know, i'm a girl, i'm excused! i'm soooo jealous of your new car!!!

 
At 1:56 pm, Blogger Urk said...

sorry to burst your bubble. have you seen the troks pulling out of the refinery? you see all of 'em (except sasol) filling up the tankers with exactly the same juice. so BP=engen=total=whatever. the only difference is the marketing.

 
At 2:53 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

ant, i think maybe you should draw up that little graph of yours...based on actualy info gathered by the experts....well ok, by you, but it still counts...cause Urk aint believing us!!
you never see a difference Urk?

 
At 6:33 pm, Blogger ATW said...

Pray tell us my dear, why the suspense....what's the new car going to be? Time to spill the beans.

Interesting that you seem quite set on a car that will not fit your typecast. But, by deliberately not going for the typecast option you are fullfilling your typecast which is about being someone who is difficult to typecast. (read that pvs sentence slowly - I think it almost makes sense - but hell I'm weary & working too hard).

Looking forward to the pics, ne'ertheless.

 
At 8:50 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey Ant,

My aunt is looking for something smaller, and the Honda Jazz was on her list. But no, she decided on the Polo Hatch.

The Jazz is not a bad car, nice features but I would not buy it. And you have to rev the car to get the VTech speed. But I must say it looks really nice in a champagne goldish colour!

 
At 9:20 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mileage is subject to so many external factors such as the year, make and model of the car, condition of the engine, tyres, wheel balancing, roads conditions, inner city vs open road, in-land vs at the coast, the driver’s skills, etc. How do you pin it down so that it applies to the motorists in general?
Many fuel companies/manufacturers sponsor fuel economy runs/rallies and they use this as a basis for making claims.
Enjoy the new car!

 
At 10:05 am, Blogger Third World Ant said...

storm - be jealous, alright. hell, i'm even jealous of myself right now!

urk - you're partially right. Shell = BP and during a shortage, everyone buys fuel for inland service stations from Sasol. I am told that additives make some difference to the fuel, and these are pumped into the fuel at the same time as the fuel is being pumped into the tanks.

storm - i did some Innernet research yesterday, might post some of that up tomorrow.

atw, dear elusive man - i take it you think i am difficult to typecast, then? by the way i dress strangers assume i'm in advertising / fine arts. i have no problem keeping that illusion up, in fact i rather enjoy it.

anon - i never tried out the Jazz, but in its price bracket i'm sure it sizes up well against its competitors.

chitty - aaahhh! i thought this would be a fantastic marketing opportunity for Shell (and tomorrow I'll post evidence from people claiming it gives them better mielage) here. so it's been done before. pooh.

 
At 11:17 am, Blogger Peas on Toast said...

My aircon definitely affects my car's performance. It's a two liter, and the moment you switch it on, you can feel the car almost jerk. It's not bad when you're cruising along, but on taking off at a robot or going up a hill, I have to floor the accelerator.

 
At 11:38 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

thanx for rubbing it in ant! aren't you just the nicest person ever:-)

enjoy!!

 
At 12:12 pm, Blogger Third World Ant said...

Peas - thanks for that. The expert has spoken, consider the debate closed!

Storm - oh on, I'm most definitely not. And i'll rub it in even more with pics, soon!

 
At 12:42 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

is hating allowed?? :-(

 
At 12:59 pm, Blogger Third World Ant said...

whoah tiger, no-one said anything about hate. just a joke, started by you, in fact :) Peace and hugs all round...

 
At 1:02 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

LOL.. i know i know:-) just kidding, i'm exactly the same way:-) besides, when it's your turn it's your turn right? i'll gladly return the favour when it's my turn

 
At 1:16 pm, Blogger Urk said...

storm : i suspect that there are lead implants in my right foot, as i always get approx. 400km to a 50l tank, so no. i dont notice a difference.thats my fault, not the fuels' though...

 
At 1:18 pm, Blogger Urk said...

just thinking back to when i had my tazz. it had a button for "econ" and a button for "a/c". when goign up a hill, drop from top gear (4th) to 3rd, and switch over from aircon to econ. def a noticeable diff in ANY car under 2 litres

 
At 1:19 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

urk - we'll have to inspect above mentioned suspicion for the sake of science:-)

now that you mention it...i wonder if metal in your right leg will make a big difference.....what's your take on half a kilo of titanium in your right leg...difference or no difference...??

 
At 2:45 pm, Blogger Third World Ant said...

storm - you're welcome to rub my face in it should that moment arise... just give me a few weeks' notice so i can trump you with an improved purchase at the same time!

urk - we're all a little heavy on the juice, but Shell takes the punishing a little better. Why won't you agree?! I want to come on over and beat you into submission! Aaarrrrgghhhh!

storm - i smell an experiment coming on...

 
At 2:56 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

fight fight!!! oooooo it's a fight:-) you go girl!!!!

yep ant, your right...i've been spending a bit of time this afternoon drawing up a plan:-) and drawing up letters to medical institutions and fuel dudes for sponsorships....all i need now are guinea piggs....i can be one(500kilo's of titanium in right leg)...need a couple more with different weights and metals.

uhmmmm...urk you're kinda signed by default, you don't have a choice, don't know anybody else who suspects their leg contains lead:-)

 
At 2:58 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

sheit, i meant 500grams, and therefore half a kilo.......the 5 o'clocker i pulled this morning is starting to knock on my door...

 
At 3:48 pm, Blogger ChewTheCud said...

i used to drive a REALLY old car before and i can tell you you can hear and feel the difference in petrols then. it would roar when you put shell in, bp was less so but also good.

 
At 6:17 pm, Blogger Revolving Credit said...

Rev = serious comment = can't be true.

So lets look at Specific Gravity

OK, having worked in the industry for one of the aforementioned companies, let me share some info.

Nationally, Shell & BP share infrastructure.
What that means is that they share depots, refineries, storage, tankers and yes..fuel.

The same tankers will load the same fuel at the same gantry (overhead filler thingy).

The base fuel is exactly the same, at times you may even get Sasol at the coast because they were forced to ship/pipe some down due to capacity problems.

Once the fuel is in the tanker or during loading, the exact amount of additive per volume is added.

That's the difference.

However, if you really want to save on your fuel budget, here's how you do it. Petrol (or diesel for that matter) is dispensed per volume measure. The standard measured volume is 1 litre.

Now, we should all understand the relationship between, volume, density, pressure and temperature.

This brings us to Specific Gravity or Relative Density .

The key is that the colder it gets, the more dense the fuel, which means that a litre of petroleum becomes heavier.

The ideal measure for fuel would be mass, as in LPG gas, not volume as a slight change in temperature has a significant effect on the volume.

So, if you need to fill your vehicle, do it at night or early morning when the ambient temperature is at its lowest.
Your litre of petrol at that time of the night/morning is heavier than the same measured liter in the afternoon.

Of course, as the liquid heats up in your fuel tank during the day, it will expand, so don't overfill your tank, else the fuel will have no place to go. If you've ever seen someone open a fuel tank in the middle of summer and had fuel shoot out the tank.
Thats because, due to the lack of volume(space) the increased heat translated to increased pressure.

But I digress. The petroleum industry have specific formulae inp lace to calculate the expected loss due to this temperature/density flux - The amount of expected loss is not trivial.

If I recall we would expect a loss at 1 particular depot (not a really big one) ,which is attributed to density flux and direct evaporation, something in the order of 100 000 litres per month.

Use it, don't use it.

 
At 6:35 pm, Blogger Urk said...

im.possible. let me compare the scenario with something easier to relate to. if you are running on the treadmill, do you get dehydrated sooner if you drink evian compared to perrier. nope. didnt thinks so. but i guess...sigh...we will have to declare a truce - one will just never find out, cos test conditions are always different. you drive different roads at different speeds all the time. its just not a controlled environment. maybe..just maybe..you should feed Peas' rat a different fuel everyday, and count how many revolutions his wheel does. thats a controlled environment. shhh....just dont tell her.. i dunno if i could defend myself, even with a lead/titanium leg.

 
At 7:21 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Rev - i might just change my mind and start thinking you're a real intelegent guy!!!! unbelievable!!!!

Urk - you can borrow my titanium plate and screws, but only if you ask really really nicely....plus you might have to take my ever so sexy leg along....wait, dunno if that's gonna work so well

 
At 7:44 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

You'll definitely feel the aircon, I certainly notice it in my 2l Alfa. It's doesn't lose revs (where would they go?), just takes the edge off when overtaking, like having two extra people in the car. They're always belt driven from the engine, taking about 4kW.

The thing is... it doesn't matter. Aircon very quickly becomes essential, I only switch it off before a premeditated 'dice'.

 
At 4:14 pm, Blogger Third World Ant said...

serious rev - such effort in your comment demands a reply. thanks for the information - it never occurred to me that 1 litre here is not 1 litre there, and in fact i probably fill up with BP early in the morning or late at night - these stations are closest to me. When i do stop at an Engen or Caltex, it's out of desperation, and normally during the (hot) day.

hmmmm....

did you ever work in the poenda, by any chance?

 

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