Third World Ant

The thoughts of a little ant on a big planet.

Wednesday, May 24, 2006

What do you believe?

Firstly, you may have noticed that I’ve changed my profile to describe my location as Jozi. I realised that by virtue of the fact that I’m associated with Peas, there’s no point in trying to hide my identity – after all, most people I know have found my blog (hi colleegs!) While amending the location I decided heck, let’s throw in a couple of links and a site visitor counter too. But I digress…

It dawned on me the other day that while the US is always associated with a large following of creationist believers (New Scientists often carries stories like this), not much has been said about evolutionists and creationists around the rest of the world.

As a result, I thought very few creationists occurred in my social / work circle, as I never thought to assume any otherwise.

(In case you need an explanation of the difference between the two, I will sum it up in a spectacular oversimplification by saying the most inflammatory implications are that evolutionists believe that mankind descended from ape-like creatures, while creationists believe this is not the case, and that God created every ‘kind’ of living organism – i.e. no macro-evolution takes place, but micro-evolution occurs to allow for variation between species in each ‘kind’ of organism).

After an admittedly too-flippant remark the other day in the office, I learned that one of my colleagues (with a Masters in Engineering) is an ardent creationist, which took me by complete surprise. He proceeded to send me a two and a half hour video clip of a creationist expert debunking ‘lies’ in high-school textbooks.

Whilst in Sepoenda, I casually mentioned the conversation to the Gilb’s housemate – another engineer – and wisely stopped short to ask whether he was of the creationist or evolutionist school of thought. Again, completely surprised.

My agenda here is not to slate one side and back the other, but to list some general thoughts that have come to mind over the past few days. (If you must know, I have no problem believing that my very distant forefathers were ape-like. After a recent visit to the zoo, I spent hours enthralled in front of the chimpanzees, amazed at how human their behaviours, gestures and facial expressions are).

1 – I know far too little about evolution theory and how scientific conclusions about evolution have been drawn to argue convincingly with anyone. I shall amend this over the coming months with a lot of reading.

2 – No person should ever base their personal convictions on watching/reading a single one-sided piece of media. Everyone is trying to prove their own side of the argument, so you never know how many indisputable opposing facts they’re leaving out. You also often don’t know how insignificant the facts are that they’re using to break down the opponent’s entire theories. Does one little hole in the opponent’s theory render their whole argument unfounded, or just point out that certain aspects of the theory need further clarification?

3 – Pro-evolutionists have a tendency to dismiss creationists as non-scientists. This is not true, the definition of science does not preclude the religious from its study. After all, who first developed sound principles around the genetic laws of inheritance? None other than an Austrian monk, Mendel.

4 – The converse is entirely true, too. Creationists tend to dismiss evolutionists as atheists (or scoffers, after a biblical reference which apparently warns against evolutionists). I happen to know quite a few God-fearing folk who completely accept the concept of evolution. Are they really heathens, or just advanced apes that have come to love God?

At the end of the day, I don’t think either party would ever conceive of being swayed to the other viewpoint by sufficient evidence. The debate has ventured far beyond the goal of revealing ultimate truth, and resides in the territory of pride. It’s political. Science has been viewed by religious ‘extremists’ as a way of belittling the historically religious control of a state, while religion has sometimes been quoted as a way of controlling the ignorant masses.

Thus, there is nothing you or I can do to change the status quo. We can hopefully just agree to disagree with people of opposing viewpoints, and maybe accept the challenge to learn a little more about the reasons for each other’s beliefs.

(As an addendum, I found a site interviewing Richard Dawkins, one of evolutionary theory’s most ardent proponents, which has a poll going that asks the following questions – numbers in brackets signify poll results:

- The universe was created in six days as described in Genesis (30%)
- Evolution began but God began and/or directs it (43%)
- Evolution is true, and religion has nothing to do with it (26%)

I don’t know whether these results are skewed – are you more likely to visit a site like this if you’re very religious (it is after all called “Belief Net”) or if you’re very anti-religious?)

10 Comments:

At 4:07 pm, Blogger Peas on Toast said...

Dude, evolution the whole way.

I have found the missing link finally.

My most recent ex boyfriend, SB, can in no way be described as a Homo Sapiens Sapiens.

Proof in the pudding I say.

PS: There was no bitterness herein.

 
At 4:33 pm, Blogger ATW said...

Howzit. Welcome to Jozi, how was the boat ride from Antarctica?

Talking about hiding one's identity - did u know that the top hit for your name is a photo of your mother? But I digress....
1. Site counter - great to have competition at the arse end of SA Top sites.
2. I note with pride that ATW has graduated to the the blogroll.

Have a look at this "movement" that Dawkins and Daniel Dennett were involved in starting:
The Brights who are described quite well
here.

The Bright outlook appeals to me but I don't think I'm I could be evangelical about it.

After a lifetime of grappling with this I'm still opting out of this with a "I choose not to believe" attitude.

I'd agree with you that it's a poor assumption to think that our social circle is made up of people who don't believe.

As you have noted it's also not something worth arguing about with them - it's not like you're going to change anyone's mind with a logical argument.

What we can agree on is that we are all human, even if we're not sure how we got there.

I came across this Adrian Mitchell poem this morning which hit the spot for me.

 
At 5:31 pm, Blogger Third World Ant said...

Peas - bitterness? Where? What if I called him a Homo Homo Sapiens? (does that make you feel better?)

ATW - turbulent ride, trust me.

And curse you, unGoogleable one. (Unless you like Janice Mirikitani, in which case I'm on to you).

1 - thanks! it's smelly down here...

2 - but naturally.

For now, I will accept we all believe differently, but knowing my stubborn self, once I have read enough on the subject I'll liberally (and probably forcefully) dispense compelling facts to the those I disagree with (I'm not even assuming I'll come out on the same end of the argument I back today).

One irresistably amusing link from your prior link, did you read the entry on the correlation between "religiosity" and IQ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence

Lovely poem that, reminds me of the simple and awed (oooh! your favourite word - hopefully used appropriately) style of ee cummings.

 
At 8:22 am, Blogger ATW said...

Sadly, I have realised that I have a closet prejudice against the religious.ie I quickly form an opinion of their worldview, intelligence, level of curiousity etc based on a single characteristic. And that opinion is not generally positive. This is not much different from racism,and that this is clearly wrong. The link you provided though indicates that I'm may generally be right, so the prejudice lies in generalising or extrapolating this to all. I would be the last to suggest that someone like CS Lewis did not have a bright, well rounded intellect. Best I work on being less judgmental.

 
At 9:11 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hi Ant

Great blog - I'm a regular reader (take it along with my morning coffee).

As far as this evolution/creationism thing goes, I'm quite interested in the debate myself. However, relatively recently, even the creationists have given up on creationism.

They've now repackaged it into something called 'intelligent design' - a less extreme version, but which still relies on a 'God' to interfere in the process. Their argument is that complex organs, like the eye for example, could not have evolved on their own.

Studies have shown, however, that there are paths that this evolution could have taken. But they conveniently ignore this.

There's plenty of stuff on the web for you to make your own mind up.

P.S. I'm also an engineer, by the way. Not all engineers are clued up in everything (although most like to think they are)

Take care, B

 
At 10:45 am, Blogger Third World Ant said...

ATW - You're all too right, we do make judgements because we're conditioned through our schooling to believe that things need solid factual evidence before we can believe them. As a result of that link I mentioned - the religiosity-IQ correlation - which I (in jest) sent to my creationist colleague, a large debate ensued on the validity of IQ testings - what is intelligence, what does the test measure anyway. So I'm going to try be more tolerable too!

Brandon - hello there! New Scientist has much disdain for the ID movement - they regard the people as fence-sitters trying to combine the best of both worlds - almost like they're creationists who have suddenly found too much evidence for evolution but don't want to abandon the creationist argument, therefore try to glue the two together.

I'm not convinced that there is sufficient quality, unbiased information on the Internet to make up your mind indefinitely. Both sides have distorted evidence to 'prove' their claims, I think...

 
At 11:12 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ant -

You changed your location! What! Did the mystic of the 7th continent lose it's appeal?

Now worries.

- Antarctica Boy

 
At 11:15 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Exactly.

As far as quality info on the internet goes, you may be right. It's hard to discern what's bollocks and what's not.

I always tend to side with the evolutionists though, precisely because they don't distort the evidence (or at least, the scientific community as a whole has checks and balances to keep this from happening). Science is far more comfortable with saying "We don't know what happens here - at the moment".

There is no such control on creationists and ID enthusiasts. They are quite prepared to quote selectively, disregard evidence, etc - and use every instance of present ignorance as 'proof' of God.

 
At 3:12 pm, Blogger ATW said...

Internet based Proofs are fun, but unlikely to convince me of anything. More likely to find the answer at the bottom of my beer or in a distant sunset. Definitely not on the internet.

 
At 3:40 pm, Blogger Third World Ant said...

Antarctica Boy - No appeal lost! Just decided there was no point in claiming false origins anymore... still have to visit the 7th continent some day...

Brandon - in general, I would say this is true of scientists, but there are always instances where 'evidence' - particularly in the way of experimental results - have been falsified. In the evolution vs creationist debate there are fanatics on both sides of the argument, I think, and getting the point across is much more important than the truth. Hence, my general scepticism with information from both sides. That side, I inherently believe in the evolution theory - but accept that for now, it is precisely that - a theory.

ATW - many many answers to be found in a beer glass, mate! The Internet seems to pose more questions than it answers for me - which isn't a problem at all, the way I see it. A tremendous source of entertainment, a way to find fascinating people (such as yourselves!), but no information I'd bet my life on.

 

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